Born and raised in Cleveland and transplanted with his family to California when his father wanted to stake a claim in his own adult distribution business, Steven Hirsch seemingly has been around porn for so long that its place in his reality is right there next to food and air. Yet there's not a trace of sleaze about him, not the vaguest notion of depravity. We talk business and we might as well be talking about silicon chips, not silicone breast implants.

Hirsch founded Vivid and has been at it for 20 years, springboarding off of his father's business into his own. But in spite of his creative vision of 1940s style exclusive contract girls and catapulting adult entertainment beyond the realm of seedy bookstores and peep booths, he doesn't seem to be terribly into porn. Any mention of his directing films or - as many future porn mavens do in the beginning - being in them, provokes a pause of somewhat puzzled astonishment. At this stage of the game, he's not even an audience member. "I don't watch the movies," he says. "That's not what I'm interested in."

Hirsch's relative distance from the movies his megalith creates means that interviewing him is like interviewing the head of Dell or Coca-Cola: he's interested in moving the company forward, and whether it's software, soda, or skin coming across his desk, it all comes down to product.

SexHerald spoke with Vivid's top normal guy about the Vivid brand, the HIV scare, and why silicone is here to stay.

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SEXHERALD: You founded Vivid twenty years ago now, and were apparently involved in the adult entertainment industry throughout your career.

STEVEN HIRSCH: Yes, our first movie came out in December of '84, it was called Ginger, and it was a very successful movie.

SH: Was this something you always expected or wanted to do? Or did you have other plans when you were at UCLA?

HIRSCH: I was studying journalism, at UCLA, that was what I was interested in; my father was in the adult industry, and during the summers I would work for him. And I was a salesperson for him.

SH: And what was his business exactly?

HIRSCH: He sold 8mm film, and eventually, video, as video became a new, viable product, he began selling video as well as 8mm film, and I helped him to do that. I worked with him for a little while, and then I decided that I needed more stimulus other than working in a family business, so I started working for a company called Cal Vista Video, where I became national sales manager, and at the same time, met my current partner.

SH: The chairman, David James?

HIRSCH: Yes. David was overseeing the mail-order division of Cal Vista, I was overseeing the wholesale division, and we decided to see if we could go out on our own.

SH: Okay, but you said you studied journalism. Whatever happened to that?

HIRSCH: Well...I liked journalism, I didn't love it. I hadn't really come up with anything I wanted to really focus on. At the same time I was working for my father, and then ultimately started working for Cal Vista, and really enjoyed the sales aspect of that. So at some point I decided that's where I wanted to devote my energies.

SH: I understand that you developed the "Vivid Girl" concept as a kind of throwback to the old Hollywood contract glamour girl model. What was that vision about? Were you interested in changing the face of adult?

HIRSCH: Well, it came in pieces. We knew that if we were going to have any success, we were going to have to find a way to be different from any other company out there. So the first thing that we did was we started to sign girls to exclusive contracts. The first girl was Ginger Lynn, and the reason behind that was, Ginger was already a star. And the feeling was, if we made movies with Ginger, people would have to come to Vivid to get them. So as long as we made high-quality movies with Ginger, then we would already have a built-in audience of fans that she had already had for several years. So that's how that started. And then once we produced several Ginger movies, we were fortunate enough to start working with Playboy Entertainment, and they started buying our movies and putting them on their cable system, and what they did was they allowed us to start shooting with film. So that was something else that sort of separated us from everybody else. At the same time, on the video side, we started producing packaging that was unlike anything else in the industry. We went to a mainstream art director who had never done an adult box; it was a completely different take on the adult industry, it was much less "adult" and much more high fashion. And so I think if you take the exclusivity of the girls, if you take the artwork that was completely different from anything else in the business, and the fact that we were shooting on film as opposed to video, all of a sudden we were different from everyone else. And that was how we began to brand ourselves as a high-quality company with the best girls.

SH: Do you think adult entertainment can be more than just entertainment?

HIRSCH: I think our vision was, again, that we would continue to make high-quality movies on a consistent basis. If we were able to do that, that would separate us from everybody else. And I think that we looked at that as separating ourselves. One of the other things that we did was, for many, many years, people in the adult industry really wouldn't talk to the media. The reason for that was because they thought they would make themselves targets if they did. We decided that we were going to go the exact opposite way, and we actually courted the media. We went out and found a PR firm, and they went out and got tons of interviews, and tons of exposure, - about our types of movies - and I think we broke through in a way that no adult company had ever broken through in a very mainstream way. Whereas prior to that, whenever you would see an article about an adult business, it would mostly be about the girls, and the girls were cute or the girls weren't cute, you know it would somehow be based around the movie aspect of the industry. We changed that, and all of a sudden the articles started to be written about the business of the adult industry, and I think we had a lot to do with that, just sort of changing the focus of the media stories.

SH: But the quality of the movies was an integral part of that shift?

HIRSCH: Right. And it wasn't all about you know, the pizza guy coming knocking at the door; these were real movies, that cost real money, that we went out and found the most beautiful girls in the world that were willing to make adult films; and we were putting them in situations that were geared towards couples and were of high quality.

SH: Did you have any aspirations towards - dare I say - art?

HIRSCH: I don't know if we had aspirations towards art, but what we did have aspirations toward was making good movies on a consistent basis. To do that isn't very easy; again, we went outside the adult industry and found top story writers, and top people throughout the entire film industry, and in that way we were able to make this product that was different from everything else. But we understood from the beginning that to us, at least, it was about the story; the story came first, and the sex was part of the story. You didn't start with the sex and then put a story around and incorporate it in that way.

SH: Were these top screenwriters and folks reluctant at all to come in and work in adult?

HIRSCH: Not really, I think there were a lot of creative people out there who were interested in making some extra money by writing, you know, adult movies. We had a whole series called The Brat, with, you know, Hollywood screenwriters, and they came out very well.

SH: You guys are really at the forefront of mainstream porn. With this administration in place, and with talk of a crackdown coming, do you think that Vivid is in any danger?

HIRSCH: First of all, I don't think that there have been a lot of federal cases that have been brought against adult film companies. I think maybe there have been one or two. But it could happen at any time, because obviously, you know, this administration is more conservative than the last. And with this administration, we're at risk of it going after the adult industry. But we really haven't seen federal prosecution, as we may have seen 30 years ago. I think the world has changed, I think appropriate justice, and priorities, may have changed along with it.

SH: With the prosecutions we have seen, however, it's been said that Vivid and Wicked and some of the larger, more mainstream companies have tried to distance themselves from the smaller, harder companies that are getting targeted. What is your response to this?

HIRSCH: I can tell you that from my own standpoint, it's not that we've tried to distance ourselves from them; it's that we've tried not to fall into the same trap as some of the harder-edged, smaller companies have. We make movies that are not going to be considered the hardest-edged movies out there. So what is important for us is to find ancillary revenue sources, so that we can make up the additional money that we lose on some VHS and DVD sales if there are people out there who just want the hardest of the hard. So I think we have to continue and remind ourselves, "Look, we're not in that business." If they want to be into that business, that's fine. We have to focus on what we do best, which is to have the best girls, the best movies, and use that and diversify the business in as many ways as possible so that we can maximize the value. I do feel that the movies that we make are movies made for couples, you know, they are on the softer side, they are condom-mandatory, we have that which makes us different from most of the people out there, and we're quite comfortable with the movies that we make.

SH: You said you make movies for couples. In recent years, polls suggest that there has been a greater acceptance and a greater audience for adult fare among women. Do you think this is accurate? And what do you think has led to that?

HIRSCH: I do think it's accurate, and several things have led to it. For many years, you could only get adult films in an adult bookstore. And women were intimidated to walk into an adult bookstore, and they would never be seen renting or buying an adult film in an adult bookstore. As video came along, and adult movies, you could start to find adult movies in major video stores, I think you saw women feeling less uncomfortable going over to the adult section in a regular video store and renting some of the adult movies. I think that started the trend. The next piece was when Playboy and some of these other cable networks started airing some of these adult films on cable where all you'd have to do was hit your remote control and you'd be able to buy an adult movie, then it became very anonymous. Then women became very comfortable watching adult movies on TV. And now with the Internet, you know, the sky's the limit, and women can watch whatever kind of content they'd like in a very anonymous way. So I think the fact that the anonymity factor has gone up has made women feel more comfortable with the adult industry. But I also believe that society has changed, and that women are more comfortable with adult type products. So you will see - you won't see them in what some might call seedier adult bookstores, but you will see them in the higher end bookstores that carry all different sorts of things, whether it's adult novelties, or adult magazines, whatever it might be - you know, scented candles, romantic - things that are more on the romantic side, I think you'll see women frequent those stores more than ever.

SH: Due to the greater number of women watching, I was wondering if we're going to see women with different and varying body types beginning to be featured in films - women that real women can more easily relate to?

HIRSCH: I think that the majority of the adult companies still feel that they're marketing to men. We don't feel that way, but I think the majority of companies out there really do feel that the majority of their audience is men. So I think that you'll see a few companies that are catering to females. We don't really cater our movies to females, we cater them to couples - that's a much bigger market. And I think you'll see a few companies doing that, but in all honesty, the number of companies that are making feature movies with storylines and plots and character development and all of those things that go into making those types of movies have really gone down.

SH: Bobby Rinaldi of Wildlife was lamenting the same thing when I interviewed him.

HIRSCH: Well, it's bad and it's good. It's bad because you would think that people would not always go for the lowest common denominator. It's good because it keeps some of the competition away from us. [Both laugh] And there's not a lot of competition. But the problem that we have is that we don't compete well in certain markets, so it's our job day in and day out to find ancillary markets so we can maximize revenue from each movie.

SH: Why do you think silicone breasts are so popular?

HIRSCH: I can tell you this - as far as Vivid girls, we never ask the girls to have any sort of implants. I happen to think that in most cases, it takes away from the beauty of the girl. But unfortunately, or fortunately for the girls, there's a whole other aspect of the adult industry, and that's the dance industry. These girls go around and they feature dance all over the country, and there's just no question that the girls with the larger breasts make the most amount of money. And they see that, and that gets them going on increasing the size of their breasts so that they can make as much money as they can when they're out there feature dancing.

SH: Do think that will ever change?

HIRSCH: Well, probably not. It's really dark in a dance club, and men really like to see large-breasted women. So I'm not really sure that that will change. But as far as this company goes, because we're a movie company, we would much rather have girls be natural than not.

SH: Do you have a favorite actress to work with?

HIRSCH: I could never answer that. [Both laugh] I can tell you this. I think that right now, at this point in the business angle of Vivid, we have without a doubt the best girls that we've ever had. They're the most responsible girls that we've ever had, they're the most beautiful girls that we've ever had, they're the best selling girls that we've ever had, and they're really a joy to deal with.

SH: A very judicious answer.

HIRSCH: And true.

SH: How far into the mainstream do you think porn can go in the United States, as opposed to in Europe where sexuality is more freely accepted?

HIRSCH: Well, I don't think you're going to see hardcore adult films on any cable network or any broadcasting network anytime soon. I think what you will see though, with video on demand becoming such a large part of how we view content, I think that you will be able to see on TV a much more diversified type of product that what you can see now. Right now there are several programs on and you pick what you want to watch. Soon with VOD, you'll have a virtual video store on your TV. When that happens, I think that it will really open up the amount of movies that are able to be viewed by people.

SH: I understand the recent industry AIDS scare cost Vivid some sales, though you are one of the few companies that requires condoms. Nobody wants government regulation, but even one of your own directors, Paul Thomas, said recently that it's hard to get these young actresses to demand condom use. And one actress suggested that many girls are doing it because they're desperate for money, and so they don't have the wherewithal or will to say 'no.'

HIRSCH: I don't think I would agree with that statement. I would tell you that the bottom line is that in most cases, movies without condoms sell better than movies with condoms. As a result of that, there are more companies that shoot without condoms than there are companies that shoot with condoms. We made a decision several years ago to become a mandatory condom company, and although I knew that it would cost us money - in sales number one, and on the production side number two - because it takes more money to shoot a movie with condoms, there are fewer guys who can use condoms well so they can charge more money. So I knew it was going to cost us more money to shoot with condoms, but what it came down to for us was, we wanted to make sure that everybody on our set was safe. And even if that cost us a few bucks down the road, I really didn't care because I wasn't going to sit here and put anybody in the position where they could contract something that I could stop from happening. So, we made the decision and stuck with the decision, and for good or bad, we'll continue with it.

SH: What do you think the solution is for the greater industry?

HIRSCH: Well I think if you look maybe at the last five or six years, we've only had one outbreak of HIV, and once it happened, it was contained very quickly, and I think that's a result of the testing procedures that are in place. I think the testing that has been done has been very, very effective. But our feeling is, they're not 100% effective. And for us, we want to be 100% sure. I think that, again, if you take a look at the sheer number of people who've contracted HIV in this industry versus any other industry, you'll probably see that we're no worse than any other industry - it's just that we get more attention. And there's no industry where people are tested more than they are in this industry. They're tested monthly, and they're tested for all sorts of things, not just HIV, but all sorts of different diseases, so I think that serves our industry well, but we decided it was important for us to go one step further.

SH: Do you think we'll see other companies following your example?

HIRSCH: I don't think you'll be seeing other companies follow, because if they were going to follow, they would've followed after the last HIV scare. And you didn't see one company move to a mandatory condom stance after the last group of people testing positive. So if you didn't see it then, you're not gonna see it now. The only way you're going to see it, is if it's mandated by the government, which ultimately, I'm not convinced will happen. And that's not in my control.

SH: Are there any protections in place for the talent in adult film, any industry standards on health insurance coverage, any hope for unionizing?

HIRSCH: In terms of unionizing, there really isn't. In terms of healthcare, there is through a company called AIM, run by Sharon Mitchell. And she has health plans that she offers to people. But in terms of unions, the people in this industry are in it so quickly that it would be difficult to get union fees out of them, because a lot of them are only in it for a month or two. So I don't think you'll see unions anytime soon. But it's really as simple as a girl saying, I think I should make 'x' amount of dollars, and for that I will do this, and I want a condom used during the sex scenes. And if the producer says 'no,' she has to be willing to walk away. The one thing that I always found ironic about our mandatory condom stance is that we should never have had to come up with that. The talent should have demanded that condoms are used in all scenes. But unfortunately, there are producers out there that just won't use condoms. And these people have to work. So they'll work without condoms, and then when they work with us they work with condoms.

HIRSCH: I had a very normal childhood. I had one brother, one sister, my father was a stockbroker prior to getting into the adult business, my mother was a homemaker; my parents are still married; we led a very normal life. And when my father got into the adult business, he worked as a salesman in Cleveland selling magazines and 8mm films, and at some point he decided to branch out on his own, so we moved out to California.

SH: Was there any stigma, as a child, with your family being involved in the adult industry?

HIRSCH: Well...we had the conversation, my parents had the conversation with myself and my sister; my brother wasn't old enough at this point to have that conversation. My parents told us that there may be kids who don't want to hang out with us because of the industry our father had chosen. And, uh, we were fine with that, and it really didn't happen - we really didn't find kids that didn't want to be friends with us, and life didn't really change.

SH: That's always really good to hear. Do you have a family now?

HIRSCH: I do, I have a wife and two kids.

SH: And are they of the age where you have to have that conversation?

HIRSCH: One is three and one is eight months.

SH: Ah, so they're far too young yet.

HIRSCH: No, we haven't had the conversation yet. But, you know, the way I look at it is, it's my job to raise two good kids, kids who know the difference between right and wrong, kids who are respectable, who are respective of other people. And, um, as long as I can do that, then I'll support them in whatever they want to do. I think the important thing is that kids understand that there's a right way and there's a wrong way, and that they treat people kindly and that they're honest, good, decent people.

SH: Do you think you would approve if one of your kids, once they got older, were to want to get involved in adult?

HIRSCH: Would I approve of one of my kids, as...an actor or an actress?

SH: Yes.

HIRSCH: I wouldn't be happy about it, because - well first of all, I think that this industry, you're only in it for a short while, and I would rather have my kids find an occupation that they can grow with for many years. But, with that being said, if that was something that my kids wanted to do, and I felt that my kids were old enough and smart enough to make that decision, then I would support them.

SH: Do you see yourself still heading this company in another twenty years, or, do you think you'll want to move on?

HIRSCH: Well, we'll see how the industry progresses. We're at a very exciting part of not only the adult industry but the entertainment industry as a whole, with Video on Demand coming online, and computers and televisions merging into one, and there's a whole wireless industry that's starting to pop up where you can watch things on telephones, so there's so many different ways that you can maximize the value of your content, and I'm interested in all of those new technologies. So I'm going to focus on that and maximize the value of our content, and you know, I'll continue doing this for as long as it's fun, and when it stops being fun, I'll turn it over to someone else.

SH: What's a typical day like for you?

HIRSCH: I come into the office, and I oversee many of the things that go on here. I oversee signing the contract girls, I oversee scheduling, doing all of our release schedules, I'm in post-production meetings; we talk about distribution, marketing, public relations. [Larry Flynt Productions] is doing our actual distribution now, so we work closely with them, make sure that we're all on the same page. We go out; we get ready for trade shows, and basically maintain Vivid's relationships. I also work daily on VOD, on the Internet, on wireless, on foreign sales; on all of these things that we feel are the future of our business. So I keep pretty busy.

SH: Do you ever get out on the set?

HIRSCH: No. I um, I decided a long time ago that there are people much better than I when it comes to making movies, and the last thing I want to do is get in the way of the people who shoot our movies. I want those people to take pride in the product that they are producing, and not feel like I'm looking over their shoulder and micromanaging everything that they do. I try to take a step back and get everything I can out of the business side and let the production people do their own thing.

SH: Have you made any movies?

HIRSCH: Have I...been in any movies?

SH: No, have you directed any, you know, before Vivid got as big as it is?

HIRSCH: No. I'm much more the business guy.

SH: Have you felt that being in this business has shaped how you view sexuality, or affected your own sex life?

HIRSCH: You know...I don't think so. I mean...One thing is for sure, and that is that there are a lot of beautiful women who are in and out of this office every day and in and out of all of our buildings every day, and of course, there's no person who wouldn't enjoy that. But you have to remember that I don't go on the set, I really don't watch the movies, that's not something I'm interested in, I'm interested in moving the company forward. So as a result of that, I don't think it's affected me in any adverse way.

SH: What is the nature of your married life, traditional, monogamous?

HIRSCH: Yeah. Very monogamous.

SH: Do you find that a lot of people in this business lead rather mainstream lives outside of it?

HIRSCH: I...I don't really know. You know, the people that I'm friends with in the business are definitely very normal, monogamous people with husbands, wives, and children. But there are now so many new companies in the business that weren't here five years ago, that I don't really know those people, and we tend to focus on Vivid, and how we can get everything that we can and maximize the value of the business. And I don't really know what those other people do.

SH: What do you like to do when you're not working?

HIRSCH: The main thing I like to do is hang out with my kids. And that brings me an immense amount of joy. I also enjoy working out, three or four times a week, and hang out with my kids.

SH: Do you get out vacationing much?

HIRSCH: Not too much...I think I've taken one vacation in the last...five years. I tend to focus on the business. But you know, as the kids start getting older, I'm sure we'll start taking more family vacations.

SH: Do you have friends outside of the business? And if so, how do they respond to what you do?

HIRSCH: The people who we're friends with outside of adult, the guys love what I do; the guys think it's very cool, they think it's the coolest job ever. Some of the women don't. But I think once they get to know me, and they get to know my wife, they find out that we're just normal people, and we're just making it like everybody else is. And I think that after a while everyone just feels comfortable with it.

SH: Do you have any kind of religious or spiritual path?

HIRSCH: I do, and I don't like to talk about it.

SH: Ah, the two verboten subjects: religion and politics.

HIRSCH: Well, politics is fine, and it makes sense in this sort of forum, given the industry that we're in. But as far as the spiritual side goes, I like to keep that private.

SH: Understood. Well then, what's your position on the current political situation in America?

HIRSCH: Well obviously, I think that when you have a conservative administration, you run the risk of having prosecution, more so than if you have a democratic administration. I think what you'll see in the adult industry is in overwhelming amount of people who will vote democratic, because they feel that that will help save their livelihood.

SH: Do you think that's accurate?

HIRSCH: Yes. Well, when Bill Clinton was president, for eight years there wasn't a single prosecution. And that's never been the case when there was a Republican president. Reagan, you know, there were a lot of people who went to court and had to prove that their movies weren't obscene, Bush was the same way, and look, I respect all people's views. My only thought on it is that if you aren't comfortable with adult movies then just don't watch them. But it's nobody's right to tell anyone else what's wrong or right for them.

SH: What would you say to a young person who was thinking about entering the adult industry?

HIRSCH: As a performer, or...

SH: As a performer.

HIRSCH: I would say, be careful of the following things: (And we have this talk with every girl who walks into my office.) Number one, once you make a movie, it is on video, it is on tape forever. Don't expect that your parents aren't gonna find out, don't expect that your family isn't gonna find out, don't expect that your current boyfriend isn't gonna find out, and don't expect that your future boyfriends aren't gonna find out. So be aware of the fact that once you make the decision to be in the industry, people are eventually going to find out. And you have to be comfortable with that. And if you're comfortable with that, then, great. The second thing is, once you're in the industry, it tends to hurt future relationships. And the reason for that is, once you are in an adult movie, there are some people out there who won't want to be with you, because they feel that you have exposed yourself to the entire world, and they don't want to be part of that. You have to be comfortable enough with yourself, and comfortable enough with who you are, that you're okay with the fact that, you know, you're taking off your clothes and having sex in front of the camera, and that you can deal with it on an emotional level. And if you can, and there are many girls who can, if you can, then I think that this is a business that if you work hard, you can make a lot of money, and become very popular. KnowingtheDownside